EFnet IRC Network Forum

I've never ran my own network, so excuse me if this is painfully obvious to the rest of the crew here, but what is the purpose or reasoning behind having a client server connected to a hub server ran by the same people.

For example:

irc[2].choopa.net -> ircd.choopa.net
irc.arcti.ca -> ircd.arcti.ca
irc[2].limelight.us -> ircd.limelight.us
...
et al.

Since I've noticed this happening primarily with US/CA servers, and EU has the hidden hubs (hub.[dk/uk/il]), the only reasoning I can come up with is that it has to do with hiding connections.

Am I correct? Is this a security feature that I just don't get? Is it more just for admin vanity (not that I see that as a bad thing)? Or is it something completely different, and it's way over my head to understand?

nexxai wrote:I've never ran my own network, so excuse me if this is painfully obvious to the rest of the crew here, but what is the purpose or reasoning behind having a client server connected to a hub server ran by the same people.

For example:

irc[2].choopa.net -> ircd.choopa.net
irc.arcti.ca -> ircd.arcti.ca
irc[2].limelight.us -> ircd.limelight.us
...
et al.

Since I've noticed this happening primarily with US/CA servers, and EU has the hidden hubs (hub.[dk/uk/il]), the only reasoning I can come up with is that it has to do with hiding connections.

Am I correct? Is this a security feature that I just don't get? Is it more just for admin vanity (not that I see that as a bad thing)? Or is it something completely different, and it's way over my head to understand?

Well, some of the reasons is stability, uptime and also load.

Usually the machines hosting hubs are located on another part of the network which is more protected/segmented away from the client server which often gets attacked. It is important to make sure that the hub has better uptime and is isolated away from users because they are the core of the network and the glue which often holds several servers connected.

Also, if the client server is attacked and have to be removed for certain time it doesnt affect the hub service the isp provides. I understand the possible "an extra vanity server" view of it, but thats not the case when it comes to these hub servers atleast.

The reason europe uses hub.uk, hub.dk etc. is because not all of the european hubs are located at the same isp as a client server allready linked, and to protect the network of the hub provider it has been decided to keep the isp`s names hidden. In US and CA that hasnt been a problem yet, as they mostly requires a isp to have a client server aside a hub, and the only way to be approved as a US hub is to have a rock stable network

Also, all of the hub.* servers staff/admins admin other client servers on the network allready aswell so its not a US/CA vanity which EU doesnt do

I know for a fact that CA has considerd a hub.ca earlier and will probably in the future also, if we find a canadian site with good connectivity willing to host a hidden hub but is not intrested in making their network more vulnerable which is something a client server would do

Dedicated hubs is one of the factors which makes less hudge splits compared to other large network, because our core of hubs is mostly well protected with good redundancy.

nexxai wrote:For example:

irc[2].choopa.net -> ircd.choopa.net
irc.arcti.ca -> ircd.arcti.ca
irc[2].limelight.us -> ircd.limelight.us

At the time of this writing (according to http://map.efnet.info/), ircd.choopa.net is making the trans-atlantic connection for EFNet, ircd.arcti.ca is hubbing for Canada as well as for ircd.limelight.us, which is also hubbing for irc.prison.net and sometimes for other servers. So, I guess the point is that they are dedicated, semi-hidden machines for hubbing for the network. My question, and maybe what you were getting at, is ones like hub.il, where (afaik) the ONLY server ever connected to it is run by the same people at the same location (irc.inter.net.il)... in this situation, what is the reason for the hub if it only ever hubs for one server?

I'm sorry that I missed the entire point of my post, but wundr summed it up exactly: what is the reason for the hub if it only ever hubs for one server?

As Hardy already said, some of it has to do with their network structure. A hub server separate from the client can be in a different network segment, and can remain up while a client server is being packeted to hell and back (or with its routes removed).

In .il's case, if I remember correctly from when I was opered, the hub is in a position better suited to link internationally, while the client is better suited for use inside the country.

Also in EU, almost all of the servers are able to hub in emergencies (which can explain banetele's hub)

wundr wrote:

nexxai wrote:For example:

irc[2].choopa.net -> ircd.choopa.net
irc.arcti.ca -> ircd.arcti.ca
irc[2].limelight.us -> ircd.limelight.us

At the time of this writing (according to http://map.efnet.info/), ircd.choopa.net is making the trans-atlantic connection for EFNet, ircd.arcti.ca is hubbing for Canada as well as for ircd.limelight.us, which is also hubbing for irc.prison.net and sometimes for other servers. So, I guess the point is that they are dedicated, semi-hidden machines for hubbing for the network. My question, and maybe what you were getting at, is ones like hub.il, where (afaik) the ONLY server ever connected to it is run by the same people at the same location (irc.inter.net.il)... in this situation, what is the reason for the hub if it only ever hubs for one server?

hub.il is mostly linked for historical reasons, from back when EFnet had alot of DoS attacks and irc.inter.net.il was limited to israeli connections only. So they hide a hub.il somewhere (..) to be able to connect his client server to the network.

And why its still around, who knows. Why should it be delinked ?

hub.il is a internal eu routing hub used by irc.inter.net.il only, and its not a global approved hub, so even if they wanted they couldnt use it to bridge the network outside of Europe. Its the same as with ircd.banetele.no which also is a internal eu hub only.

Hwy wrote:As Hardy already said, some of it has to do with their network structure. A hub server separate from the client can be in a different network segment, and can remain up while a client server is being packeted to hell and back.

So what? What function does it serve? If the only server that was connected to it is now down due to packets, it's just sitting there, effectively wasting space and bandwidth, as whatever other hub it's connected to is sending it data which is not being used. That's what I'm asking.

nexxai wrote:

Hwy wrote:As Hardy already said, some of it has to do with their network structure. A hub server separate from the client can be in a different network segment, and can remain up while a client server is being packeted to hell and back.

So what? What function does it serve? If the only server that was connected to it is now down due to packets, it's just sitting there, effectively wasting space and bandwidth, as whatever other hub it's connected to is sending it data which is not being used. That's what I'm asking.

irc.avalonworks.ca
`- ircd.arcti.ca
|- ircd.limelight.us
| |- irc2.limelight.us
| |- irc.Prison.NET
| `- irc.limelight.us
|- irc.kagmir.ca
|- ircd.servercentral.net
| |- ircd.desync.com
| |- irc.easynews.com
| |- ircd.he.net

All of the hubs except perhaps hub.il is used by other servers aswell. Lets say that the servercentral client servere is getting packeted or is having some problems, the servercentral dedicated hub server located on another part of the network is still hubbing client servers like easynews and mzima, and also beeing a birdge toward europe and canada and other US hub servers aswell.

Like i said, with the exception of hub.il ( because it doesnt make sense also for europe to hub thru israel ) theyy serve as bridges betwin other hubs and also holds client servers. All client servers on efnet have connect lines to more then one hub, incase one of them is down.

Hardy wrote:irc.avalonworks.ca
`- ircd.arcti.ca
|- ircd.limelight.us
| |- irc2.limelight.us
| |- irc.Prison.NET
| `- irc.limelight.us
|- irc.kagmir.ca
|- ircd.servercentral.net
| |- ircd.desync.com
| |- irc.easynews.com
| |- ircd.he.net

Now by your own example, ircd.desync.com is doing absolutely nothing. It's just sitting there wasting space. Or am I missing something?

nexxai wrote:

Hardy wrote:irc.avalonworks.ca
`- ircd.arcti.ca
|- ircd.limelight.us
| |- irc2.limelight.us
| |- irc.Prison.NET
| `- irc.limelight.us
|- irc.kagmir.ca
|- ircd.servercentral.net
| |- ircd.desync.com
| |- irc.easynews.com
| |- ircd.he.net

Now by your own example, ircd.desync.com is doing absolutely nothing. It's just sitting there wasting space. Or am I missing something?

Right now it is, but tomorrow if servercentral perhaps goes down for some reason, its suddenly holding together the network. We need redundancy.

And desync is a good example also, because due to attacks they had to remove their client server for a while to secure the network better and upgrading some things, and while they do that with the public client server they still have a hub here that benefits the network by holding other client servers ( in theory.. )

Hardy wrote: hub.il is mostly linked for historical reasons, from back when EFnet had alot of DoS attacks and irc.inter.net.il was limited to israeli connections only. So they hide a hub.il somewhere (..) to be able to connect his client server to the network.

And why its still around, who knows. Why should it be delinked ?

Actually those very reasons are not so historical, right now irc.inter.net.il's ip is not being broadcasted to the world [due to DoS prolly?], and for it to be able to connect to the network it would need to connect with a different IP, and it only makes sense to have that IP in a different segment of the network in case things get too hectic

Noam wrote:

Hardy wrote: hub.il is mostly linked for historical reasons, from back when EFnet had alot of DoS attacks and irc.inter.net.il was limited to israeli connections only. So they hide a hub.il somewhere (..) to be able to connect his client server to the network.

And why its still around, who knows. Why should it be delinked ?

Actually those very reasons are not so historical, right now irc.inter.net.il's ip is not being broadcasted to the world [due to DoS prolly?], and for it to be able to connect to the network it would need to connect with a different IP, and it only makes sense to have that IP in a different segment of the network in case things get too hectic

Both yes and no

irc.inter.net.il could have another ip-adress from another vlan hooked up on the irc-server aswell, and use that one for routing and opers to connect. That is what alot of current efnet servers does, so they can block the /24 the client ip is on incase of attacks and still remain linked.

However the reason it was historical, is because i think .il had hyb5 when it linked its hub and it didnt support it then (?)